BOARD MEETING STATE OF CALIFORNIA AIR RESOURCES BOARD JOE SERNA JR. BUILDING CALEPA HEADQUARTERS BUILDING 1001 I STREET BYRON SHER AUDITORIUM SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA THURSDAY, MAY 26, 2005 9:00 A.M. JAMES F. PETERS, CSR, RPR CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER LICENSE NUMBER 10063 PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 ii APPEARANCES BOARD MEMBERS Mrs. Barbara Riordan, Acting Chairperson Ms. Sandra Berg Supervisor Mark DeSaulnier Dr. Henry Gong Ms. Lydia Kennard Mayor Ronald Loveridge Supervisor Ron Roberts CALIFORNIA EPA Dr. Alan C. Lloyd, Agency Secretary STAFF Ms. Catherine Witherspoon, Executive Officer Mr. Tom Cackette, Chief Deputy Executive Officer Mr. Michael Scheible, Deputy Executive Officer Ms. Lynn Terry, Deputy Executive Officer Mr. Tony Andreoni, Manager, Process Evaluation Section Dr. Robert Barham, Assistant Chief, Stationary Source Division Mr. Richard D. Bode, Chief, Health and Exposure Assessment Branch Ms. Analisa Bevan, ZEV Implementation Section PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 iii APPEARANCES CONTINUED STAFF Mr. Richard Corey, Chief, Research and Economics Branch Ms. Barbara Cook, Process Evaluation Section Dr. Bart E. Croes, Chief, Research Division Ms. Lesley Crowell, Air Resources Engineer Ms. Vicki Davis, Staff Counsel Mr. Dan Donohoue, Chief, Emissions Assessment Branch Dr. Shelley Duteaux, Health and Ecosystems Assessment Mr. Bob Jenne, Senior Staff Counsel Mr. Tom Jennings, Senior Staff Counsel Mr. Jack Kitowski, Chief, On-Roads Control Regulations Branch Ms. Annmarie Mora, Air Pollution Specialist, Research Division Mr. George Poppic, Senior Staff Counsel Mr. Dean Simeroth, Chief, Criteria Pollutants Branch Ms. Linda T. Smith, Manager, Health and Ecosystems Assessment Branch Mr. Peter Venturini, Chief, Stationary Source Division Mr. Gary Yee, Manager, Industrial Section ALSO PRESENT Ms. Shirely Batchman Ms. Shannon Baxter-Clemmons, Special Advisor on Hydrogen & Alternative Energy, CalEPA, Office of the Secretary Mr. Rick Bishop, John Deere PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 iv APPEARANCES CONTINUED ALSO PRESENT Mr. Manual Cunha Ms. Brighid Desmond, Chadwick School Ms. Catherine Dunwoody, Executive Director, California Fuel Cell Partnership Mr. Tim French, Engine Manufacturers Association Mr. Randal Friedman, California Government Affairs Mr. Ron Friesen, Executive Director, California Stationary Fuel Cell Collaborative Mr. Karl Lany, SCEC Mr. John Martini, CIPA Mr. David Maul, California Energy Commission Mr. Rick Morrow, San Diego Gas and Electric Southern California Gas Co. Mr. Charlie Simpson, Quinn Power System Mr. Joe Sparano, President, Western States Petroleum Association Mr. John Whitney, Clarke Fire Production Products, Inc. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 v INDEX PAGE Pledge of Allegiance 1 Roll Call 1 Item 05-5-4 Acting Chairperson Riordan 16 Executive Officer Witherspoon 17 Ms. Baxter-Clemmons 19 Ms. Dunwoody 30 Mr. Friesen 40 Discussion and Q&A 50 Item 05-5-1 Acting Chairperson Riordan 67 Executive Officer Witherspoon 67 Staff Presentation 68 Discussion and Q&A 73 Item 05-5-2 Acting Chairperson Riordan 77 Staff Presentation 77 Discussion and Q&A 80 Motion 82 Vote 83 Afternoon Session 85 Item 05-5-3 Acting Chairperson Riordan 85 Executive Officer Witherspoon 85 Staff Presentation 86 Ombudsman Tschogl 97 Mr. French 98 Mr. Friedman 105 Mr. Bishop 107 Mr. Whitney 114 Mr. Lany 119 Mr. Simpson 124 Mr. Cunha 130 Ms. Batchman 135 Discussion and Q&A 138 Motion 138 Vote 140 PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 vi INDEX CONTINUED PAGE Item 05-5-3 Acting Chairperson Riordan 140 Executive Officer Witherspoon 141 Staff Presentation 143 Mr. Maul 162 Mr. Sparano 164 Mr. Martini 168 Mr. Morrow 170 Public Comment 172 Adjournment 176 Reporter's Certificate 177 PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 1 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Good morning. And 3 let me call the May 26th public meeting of the Air 4 Resources Board to order. 5 And I would like to invite Ms. Kennard to lead us 6 in the pledge. And so if you'd all rise please. 7 (Thereupon the Pledge of Allegiance was 8 Recited in unison.) 9 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Thank you, Ms. 10 Kennard. 11 And now will the clerk please call the roll. 12 BOARD CLERK ANDREONI: Ms. Berg? 13 BOARD MEMBER BERG: Present. 14 BOARD CLERK ANDREONI: Ms. D'Adamo? 15 Supervisor DeSaulnier? 16 Dr. Gong? 17 BOARD MEMBER GONG: Here. 18 BOARD CLERK ANDREONI: Ms. Kennard? 19 BOARD MEMBER KENNARD: Here. 20 BOARD CLERK ANDREONI: Mayor Loveridge? 21 BOARD MEMBER LOVERIDGE: Here. 22 BOARD CLERK ANDREONI: Supervisor patrick? 23 Ms. Pineda? 24 Supervisor Roberts? 25 BOARD MEMBER ROBERTS: Here. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 2 1 BOARD CLERK ANDREONI: Madam Chairman Riordan? 2 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Here. 3 Thank you very much. 4 Before we proceed I'd like to inform everyone of 5 a few changes in our agenda today. It's a change simply 6 in the order of the agenda. We have moved Agenda Item No. 7 05-5-4, the update on the hydrogen highway, to first. 8 This change will allow the Board to recess at 11 a.m. this 9 morning so that we can attend a press event in the 10 courtyard of this, the CalEPA Building, where three 11 hydrogen vehicles will be delivered to the state by 12 DaimlerChrysler. These vehicles will be assigned as fleet 13 vehicles to the ARB, to the Governor's office and to the 14 California Energy Commission. 15 The Board meeting will resume promptly at 1 p.m. 16 with Agenda Item 05-5-3. This is the ATCM stationary 17 compression ignition engine item. And we will deal with 18 that at that time. 19 Also I've been informed that we perhaps will have 20 a fire drill today. And of course I've lost the 21 instructions. But that's all right. Artavia will help 22 us. But should this occur, the audience is asked to exit 23 those rear doors and follow the instructions of Octavio to 24 the -- to my left, your right, as you're outside. We as 25 Board members will exit another door. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 3 1 We are hopeful those fire drills will not occur 2 during the hearing. But I'm not sure, and so we need to 3 be prepared. 4 As soon as we're given an all-clear signal, we 5 will move back of course for the balance of the hearing. 6 And that drill can come at any time at a moment's notice. 7 Having said that, and wanting to begin our agenda 8 with an item that is not calendared but it's an official 9 agenda item. 10 Those of us who have been with ARB for a number 11 of years know how very special Peter Venturini is to the 12 ARB. He's the Chief of the Stationary Source Division, 13 and after 33 years of service he's going to retire. And 14 this is a very special day. And we want to honor him by a 15 resolution, as well as I think there are some in the 16 audience who would like to make some comments. 17 And, Peter, I'm looking -- oh, there's Peter. I 18 kept looking for you, and you're sort of hiding there. 19 Peter, I just would like to say, whoever drafted 20 this resolution, it is quite wonderful. And so I'm going 21 to read it. And I think all of you will enjoy how well 22 this has been crafted for such a special person. 23 And it begins as: 24 "Whereas, after a rewarding and successful 33 25 year career with the Air Resources Board, Mr. Peter PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 4 1 Venturini, Chief of the Stationary Source Division, has 2 officially announced his retirement from public service. 3 "Whereas, the young, enthusiastic Peter began his 4 career at the ARB in 1972, after graduating from the 5 University of California at Berkeley, with both Bachelor's 6 Master's degrees in mechanical engineering, he described 7 himself as a new type of emerging engineer, one whose 8 engineering competence includes an awareness of the 9 environmental and social implications of his work. Peter 10 was well trained in his initial years at the ARB to endure 11 and persist through a management system that progressively 12 agonized, terrorized, harmonized, tailored, and simonized 13 his work products. 14 "Whereas, he quickly established himself as an 15 expert in air pollution control engineering, and in 1977 16 moved into a management position in the energy strategy 17 section. By 1978, he was appointed Chief of the Research 18 and Economic Studies. And became the Regional Programs 19 Division Chief in 1981. And then in 1983 he became Chief 20 of the Stationary Source Division. As he moved up the 21 organizational ladder, we gained respect and gratitude 22 from those who worked in his ARB family. Peter has 23 demonstrated his belief that people rarely succeed unless 24 they enjoy what they're doing. He has consistently made 25 sound technical and policy recommendations to this Board PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 5 1 on a substantial array of air pollution control 2 strategies, ranging from cleaner burning motor vehicle 3 fuels, air toxic identification and control, diesel risk 4 reduction, consumer products, best available retrofit 5 technology, energy issues, air toxic hot spots, and more. 6 "Whereas, he has doggedly wrestled with the U.S. 7 Environmental Protection Agency over issues such as the 8 OCS negotiated rule-making, the Title 5 Operating Permit 9 Program, and the Equivalency of California Air Toxics 10 Control Program. Peter has complemented his technical 11 competence with a great sense of humanity, kindness and 12 ethical behavior. As our valued colleague leaves his post 13 here at the ARB, he takes with him the respect of the 14 Board members and staff, regulated industry, environmental 15 advocates, and the nationwide air pollution control 16 community, and every Californian that breathes clean air. 17 "Peter has utilized his skills as a trained 18 Porsche race car driver to run the Stationary Source 19 Division with precision. Peter now wishes to reinvent 20 himself in his retirement as a gentleman rancher; world 21 traveler; grandfather; retired annuitant; seasoned 22 mechanic, pit crew, race car driver; and man about town. 23 "And, whereas, Peter is a man who knows how to 24 make the most of any golden opportunity, and that is why 25 we have no doubt that he will enjoy every moment of his PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 6 1 life after ARB with his wife, Jeannie; daughters Kathryn, 2 Laura, Jean Marie; and his son-in-laws Dean and John. 3 "Therefore, be it resolved that the Board gives 4 tribute to the superb achievements of Peter Venturini for 5 his successful career and extends heartfelt thank you for 6 his superb and superior accomplishments over the years." 7 And it's signed by all of us, Peter. 8 And I'll meet you down here and invite you to 9 make a comment. And then people from the audience would 10 like to also. 11 But let's give Peter a hand after 33 years. 12 (Applause.) 13 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: I think we'll frame 14 this for you, Peter, but we need to get two or three more 15 signatures. And so it will be framed. But 16 congratulations to you. 17 STATIONARY SOURCE DIVISION CHIEF VENTURINI: 18 Thank you very much. 19 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: And it's now your 20 turn. 21 Then I'll invite the others up. 22 STATIONARY SOURCE DIVISION CHIEF VENTURINI: Wow, 23 kind of find myself at a loss for words, which is not what 24 I'm known for. 25 I am truly humbled by these very, very kind words PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 7 1 and expressions. And I'm very thankful and appreciate 2 very much this. 3 I truly consider it being an honor and a 4 privilege to have had this opportunity to spend my career 5 in such a worthwhile endeavor, and with an organization 6 that has such -- has had such an important focus over the 7 many years. And, that is, to protect the public health of 8 the people of California. And I'm very proud to have been 9 part of that, very proud to have worked with such 10 wonderful people and to see the work just continue. 11 And I have had the luxury of working for every 12 Board at the ARB. And there's one constant throughout all 13 of those boards; and that has been their unfaltering 14 commitment to the protection of the public health of the 15 people of California. 16 So thank you, thank you very much. I look 17 forward to my retirement. I will be around and you'll be 18 seeing more of me, but a little less stress in my life. 19 That's all. 20 So thank you all very much. 21 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: And you deserve 22 that. 23 (Applause.) 24 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Peter, why don't you 25 just sort of stand to the side of the podium and let me PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 8 1 call first Manny Cunha. 2 Manny, if you'd come forward with -- and 3 introduce your colleague. 4 MS. BATCHMAN: Well, I'm going to go first. 5 But first of all, I'm Shirley Batchman. And I'm 6 also part of the agricultural group with Manuel. Peter 7 knows us well, trust me, as one of the newest regulated 8 industries that your board is seeing a lot of lately. And 9 I'm sure we're not the easiest industry that has come 10 before you in the last couple years. 11 But I want tell you, Peter, we want to thank you. 12 This gentleman has gone out of his way to truly understand 13 agriculture, our concerns, our issues. And you have been 14 an example for everyone at ARB as far as how staff is to 15 work with industry so that ARB can achieve your objectives 16 and we can still continue to do business. And so, Peter, 17 for that we thank you. We're sorry that you're leaving. 18 But you're glad that you've come to our side as a 19 gentleman farmer. 20 (Laughter.) 21 MS. BATCHMAN: Manuel. 22 MR. CUNHA: Thank you very much. This is quite 23 a -- to have him retire before me, I mean, you know. But 24 on behalf of the entire agriculture, you know, we -- you 25 used to have a lot of hair. I remember in '92 when we got PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 9 1 involved. And I think Lynn Terry was even back there and 2 a few other folks that were starting to work with 3 agriculture. But you have been a gentleman. You've made 4 our lives to continue farming in this state a real -- a 5 real thing to continue happening versus command and 6 control, all of agriculture. 7 Many of the folks that are not even here today 8 really do send their warmest, you know, sadness that 9 you're leaving the industry, the agency; but like Shirley 10 said, you're going to do the other side now that's going 11 to start producing the food that feeds this country. 12 So the ag industry, your little group from the 13 San Joaquin Valley would like to present you with a couple 14 items. 15 Madam Chair, if you could indulge for about six, 16 seven minutes of this, because it has to go through a 17 process, because he really needs to know what it feels 18 like to be a real farmer now. He was driving race cars 19 and all that. Now he's going to be a real farmer. 20 So the first thing we're going to do is you're 21 going to open up this big green box. But to do that you 22 need a knife. And so we have a little knife for you to 23 open up things, Peter, so you don't strain fingers or 24 anything. 25 There's a little tin pocket knife in there. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 10 1 Why don't we come over here where it will be 2 safer where you won't hit anybody, just in case. 3 ARB has workers' comp? 4 (Laughter.) 5 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Of course, Manny. 6 MR. CUNHA: Just tear it apart. Just go for it. 7 Shirley and Roger Isem, Carla Fullerton, and 8 Dennis Tristo and many of those folks, people that have 9 worked for years with Peter, decided to get him something 10 that no one can say was bribing Peter on any issues today. 11 So we have to make sure that under the law of lobbying 12 that this is exempt from any lobbying records. So he 13 doesn't have to record it. 14 Peter's got 160 acres in the hill. That's a 15 thing for taking the weeds down. 16 The next tool is a pruning shear for pruning out 17 poison oak and poison ivy. 18 This is to remove huge rocks in the areas and a 19 garden. 20 You can put them down. You got more coming, 21 Peter. 22 We have a shovel that has a rubber cushioned 23 handle because of the softness of his hands over the last 24 umpteen years. We have to fill them up slowly with the -- 25 and a hand saw to cut trees that folds away so he doesn't PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 11 1 get hurt. 2 STATIONARY SOURCE DIVISION CHIEF VENTURINI: This 3 sounds like work. 4 MR. CUNHA: And here are some gloves because the 5 hands have to be protected, the most important thing for a 6 farmer. 7 And of course the last item is to have a 8 pitchfork to pull away the poison oak and the poison ivy. 9 I don't know if there's anything else in there. 10 There probably is. 11 Oh, and a posthole digger. 12 Again, Peter, we thank you so much for everything 13 you've done for agriculture in California. 14 And Shirley's got something here for you that she 15 wants to share with you as well. And Les Clark has a 16 little something in there for you as well. So we want to 17 make sure you get that. 18 MS. BATCHMAN: All we're saying is those who have 19 been around agriculture know that the grower, the farmer, 20 whatever we wish to call him, the hats always get ugly and 21 they never throe them away. They have sweat bands and 22 sweat rings around them forever. 23 So, Peter, we have all kinds in here for you. 24 You can just model one if you'd like. And, once again, we 25 thank you. You have truly been a pleasure to work with. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 12 1 STATIONARY SOURCE DIVISION CHIEF VENTURINI: 2 Thank you very much. 3 (Applause.) 4 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: That hat looks 5 relatively new. I don't know -- 6 MS. BATCHMAN: We gave him four different models. 7 STATIONARY SOURCE DIVISION CHIEF VENTURINI: I'm 8 going to lose it here. 9 I can just say thank you Shirley, Manuel and the 10 other folks. It's been a true pleasure working with all 11 of your. And I don't know what to say. I'm just touched. 12 Thank you very much. 13 (Applause.) 14 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Ms. Witherspoon, is 15 there anyone else that -- I thought the -- Secretary 16 Lloyd. 17 (Laughter.) 18 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: It's been so long 19 since we've seen you, I hardly recognize you. 20 (Laughter.) 21 CAL EPA SECRETARY LLOYD: How quickly she 22 forgets. 23 (Laughter.) 24 CAL EPA SECRETARY LLOYD: Again, I came down 25 to -- wasn't aware that this suddenly is on for Peter PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 13 1 today. 2 But obviously, Madam Chair and distinguished 3 members of the Board, it gives me great pleasure to -- and 4 sadness -- to be here to witness Peter's retirement. I've 5 come to work with Peter over the years I've been here. 6 I've got tremendous respect for Peter. As many in this 7 building, people work tremendously hard. But what Peter's 8 brought to the Board I think was -- Manuel described it 9 very appropriately -- epitomizes the very best of what 10 this Governor is trying to do, balance the environment 11 with the economy. 12 But also Peter's integrity, his willingness to -- 13 also to train people I think is very, very important. And 14 that's something that the Air Resources Board will need 15 over the years. 16 So I'd like to thank Peter for all his service 17 from the time I've worked with him and for his great 18 contribution to California. I think it's wonderful. 19 The one memory I remember of Peter however was 20 also getting on the race track at Sears Point there when 21 we both admired, as did Tom, I know, getting these 22 light-duty diesel which had so much horsepower. I took it 23 for a trip around there, Peter with me, and of course very 24 mildly. But I knew I could kill myself getting on there 25 with Peter. Scared the "H" out of me. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 14 1 (Laughter.) 2 CAL EPA SECRETARY LLOYD: But you could see his 3 talent there. And so I'm so delighted that in fact that 4 he's in such great health that he was able to enjoy that, 5 enjoy the vehicles. 6 And, Peter, we hope you will live long enough so 7 light-duty diesel vehicles get into California, with all 8 of the many things that you can do. 9 So thank you, Peter, very much. And I wish you 10 all the very, very best. 11 (Applause.) 12 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Thank you very much. 13 Mr. Secretary, thank you very much. 14 Madam Ombudsman. 15 OMBUDSMAN TSCHOGL: As the ombudsman, I have to 16 say that he's been one of the most wonderful people to 17 work with with industry. 18 And yesterday I got a call from Jay McKeeman from 19 California Independent Oil Marketers Association. And he 20 wanted to come and speak and tell him how much he 21 appreciated this. But a conflict came and at the last 22 minute he was unable to do it. So I promised him that I 23 would extend my -- or his appreciation and actually my 24 appreciation for working with industry so well. 25 And also my favorite time with Peter was at the PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 15 1 demolition derby, when he drove. And I was on the pit 2 crew and so was my son. And my son's favorite memory 3 honestly is Peter letting him wear the helmet and being in 4 that demolition derby car. He didn't get to ride in a 5 race though because I -- they had an age limit. 6 But, anyway, thank you. Thank you so much for 7 working so well with industry. Appreciate it. 8 (Applause.) 9 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Well, Peter, again 10 we say thank you. We wish you the very best. And I think 11 with the tools that you've been given just recently, 12 you're going to have one wonderful time. I hope that you 13 know how to use all of those tools. And it's going to be 14 a challenge. But we will look forward to some reports 15 back on your gentleman farming. 16 Thank you, Peter. 17 STATIONARY SOURCE DIVISION CHIEF VENTURINI: 18 Thank you very much. 19 (Applause.) 20 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: Oh, Look at that. 21 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Oh, how nice. 22 Does Peter have a picture of this? Is this 23 something that can be captured for posterity. That's very 24 nice. 25 That will be fun, Peter, to have that picture, PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 16 1 for sure. 2 Let me now move back to our regular agenda. And 3 this is Agenda Item 05-5-4. 4 And let me remind anyone in the audience who 5 wishes to testify on today's agenda items, to please sign 6 up with the Clerk to the Board, who's down here to my 7 left. And if you have a written statement, please provide 8 her with 30 copies. 9 The first item is an informational briefing on 10 the Hydrogen Highway Network and fuel cell activities. 11 As you know, the Governor has committed to 12 establish a network of fueling stations spanning the state 13 to provide hydrogen to a growing number of fuel cell and 14 hydrogen combustion vehicles. CalEPA organized a group of 15 over 200 experts from the private sector, government and 16 NGOs to develop an implementation plan for the Hydrogen 17 Highway Network. That plan has been recently completed 18 and approved. 19 I've asked staff to provide the Board with a 20 briefing on the Hydrogen Highway Blueprint Plan. And we 21 have also invited directors of the California Fuel Cell 22 Partnership and the California Stationary Fuel Cell 23 Collaborative to address the Board and describe their 24 involvement in the hydrogen highway implementation. 25 Ms. Witherspoon, would you please introduce this PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 17 1 item. 2 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: Thank you, Madam 3 Chairman. 4 In California's pursuit of clean air, hydrogen 5 has emerged as an alternative fuel that can provide both 6 environmental and economic benefits to our state. Much 7 effort has already been put forth in California to support 8 hydrogen. For example, the low emission vehicle 9 regulations adopted by this Board provide mandates to 10 produce air emission vehicles and credits that encourage 11 production of hydrogen. 12 Two partnerships have also been formed in 13 California, the California Fuel Cell Partnership and 14 Stationary Fuel Cell Collaborative, to begin paving the 15 way towards commercialization of hydrogen technologies. 16 And most recently, just yesterday, the Governor announced 17 these efforts in the hydrogen blue print plan calling for 18 a highway in California by 2010 to provide convenient 19 fueling for operators of hydrogen vehicles. 20 Hydrogen has the potential to address several 21 high priority areas for the state: Energy independence 22 and diversity, environmental protection and economic 23 development. For these reasons and because they see a 24 strong business case and market for hydrogen, industry has 25 supported the development of hydrogen technologies. In PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 18 1 fact, we see the level of support for hydrogen unlike any 2 other alternative fuel and from the broad scope of 3 stakeholders. 4 The auto industry is investing billions into 5 hydrogen vehicle research and development. And every 6 major manufacturer is demonstrating hydrogen vehicles. 7 All the major car manufacturers are members of the 8 California Fuel Cell Partnership. Likewise, the energy 9 sector's expanding their portfolios to include hydrogen 10 and installing hydrogen stations where needed to support 11 demonstration vehicles. 12 These industries, along with technology 13 companies, the environmental community, and many 14 government and non-government organizations supported the 15 hydrogen highway by their participation and input into the 16 blueprint plan. 17 In California all of us are working together to 18 advance hydrogen. Today we'd like to share with you 19 recent progress. 20 Dr. Shannon Baxter-Clemmons, CalEPA's special 21 advisor on hydrogen and alternative energy projects will 22 brief you on the California Hydrogen Highway Blueprint 23 Plan. 24 Catherine Dunwoody, Executive Director of the 25 California Fuel Cell Partnership, will speak about how the PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 19 1 partnership is moving forward and the role it can play in 2 implementing the hydrogen highway. 3 Ron Friesen, the Executive Director of the 4 California Fuel Cell Collaborative, will share information 5 on their related activities and the role the collaborative 6 can play in implementing the hydrogen highway. 7 And now Dr. Baxter-Clemmons will begin the staff 8 presentation. 9 (Thereupon an overhead presentation was 10 Presented as follows.) 11 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 12 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: Okay. Madam Chair and 13 distinguished members of the Board, thank you for inviting 14 us to speak today. 15 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Let's see if we can 16 get your microphone closer -- either close to you and be 17 sure it's on -- 18 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 19 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: A little bit more like this? 20 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Yes. Thank you. 21 All right. Our opening slide you I can see that 22 they're just the logos from three different distinct 23 activities. But these activities are all working in 24 concert to bring fuel security to -- or energy diversity 25 and fuel security to California and environmental quality PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 20 1 with our transportation and energy sectors in California. 2 There we go. Wonderful. 3 --o0o-- 4 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 5 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: I'll start with the California 6 Hydrogen Highway Network effort. 7 I would like to acknowledge a few folks at the 8 Air Resources Board who have made a big -- played big 9 parts in the success that the Hydrogen Highway Network has 10 seen to date. And those would be Catherine Witherspoon, 11 Tom Cackette, and Analisa Bevan, Eileen Tutt, Melissa 12 Meuser and Fereidun Feizollahi. 13 --o0o-- 14 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 15 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: First I'll tell you a little bit 16 about the Governor's vision, and then the implementation 17 strategy and where we are presently in this process. 18 --o0o-- 19 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 20 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: This goes -- the Hydrogen Highway 21 Network goes all the way back to the beginning of 2004. 22 And in the Governor's State of the State address, he says, 23 "I'm going to encourage the building of the hydrogen 24 highway to take us to the environmental future. I intend 25 to show the world that economic growth and the environment PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 21 1 can coexist." A very strong message I think in a lot of 2 Governor Schwarzenegger's activities. 3 "And If you want to see it, then come to 4 California." 5 (Laughter.) 6 --o0o-- 7 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 8 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: What the Governor saw and that 9 Tarry Tamminen, his cabinet secretary pointed out, is that 10 there's a chicken and egg issue going on in California. 11 And I think the fuel cell partnership will tell quite a 12 bit how they've got the chicken part coming to California 13 and running around on our roads, but we don't have the 14 eggs. We don't have the fueling stations. And, in fact, 15 one auto manufacturer's told us that if there was -- there 16 were a network of accessible -- publicly accessible 17 hydrogen stations, that they would have been able to start 18 their leasing program one year earlier. And so the 19 Governor, in his wisdom, started the California Hydrogen 20 Highway Network. 21 --o0o-- 22 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 23 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: Okay. So I think what you will 24 hear at the press event at 11:10 is a little bit about the 25 California Hydrogen Blueprint Plan. And this plan was PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 22 1 started just after the Governor signed an executive order 2 in April of 2004 where he designated the 21 interstate 3 freeways in California as the California Hydrogen Highway 4 Network. And he tapped CalEPA to lead the development of 5 the California Hydrogen Blueprint Plan. 6 This blueprint plan suggests the pathway to 7 implement the Governor's vision to have a network of 8 stations and to have vehicles for consumers in California 9 hydrogen vehicles. 10 This process to put together the hydrogen 11 blueprint plan involved over 200 stakeholders. We had a 12 blue ribbon advisory panel that met approximately six 13 times, and we had five topic teams that worked on the 14 different challenges associated with the Hydrogen Highway 15 Plan. And just to give you an idea of the importance that 16 these companies and organizations put on this plan is -- 17 BMW would fly one of their senior vice presidents into 18 every one of the advisory panel meetings from Germany and 19 then fly him back. 20 The same thing with Ford, with their vice 21 president from Michigan, DOE from the East Coast. So I 22 think that there was a recognition that this was a very 23 important effort, not just for California but for the 24 future of hydrogen and fuel cell vehicles. 25 The report is in two volumes. The first volume PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 23 1 is recommendations from the executive order team to the 2 Governor. An executive order team includes Secretary 3 Lloyd, myself, and Daniel Emmett with Energy Independence 4 Now. 5 Volume 2 is the recommendations of the advisory 6 panel as supported by the work of the topic teams. 7 And then what you'll hear in that press event is 8 that this plan has been adopted by the administration. 9 I'm going to give you a few highlights of this 10 plan as quickly as possible. 11 --o0o-- 12 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 13 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: The Implementation Strategy. 14 --o0o-- 15 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 16 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: With the Schwarzenegger 17 administration, action, action, action is a recurring 18 theme. And I can't get any action on this clicker. 19 Should I be pointing this somewhere else? 20 --o0o-- 21 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 22 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: All right. So the action plan 23 has five points to it. 24 A funding mechanism. We ask that the Governor 25 propose funding for the Hydrogen Highway Network in his PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 24 1 budget. And he has done that for the first year. 2 We recommended that a public/private partnership 3 be formed building on the structure that we've built to 4 date with the 200 stakeholders. 5 Environmental goals. I'll point these out to 6 you. But it's not just about putting in hydrogen. As 7 you're probably aware, there are many different ways to 8 produce hydrogen. Hydrogen does not normally exist 9 freely. It's in water. It's in methanol. It's in 10 ethanol. It's in gasoline. And so the way that you get 11 that hydrogen and the source you use for your hydrogen 12 makes a big difference with regard to the emissions that 13 are released. 14 We wanted to see some policies implemented in the 15 state to promote a business environment for hydrogen. 16 And an outreach plan. Our stakeholders need to 17 be contacted early and often. And so the outreach plan is 18 very important for the acceptance of this blueprint plan. 19 --o0o-- 20 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 21 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: The next highlight I want to make 22 of the plan is a phased approach. 23 What we've done is we've made a very common sense 24 approach to implementing the Governor's goals. So we see 25 that there would be three phases. And this would poise PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 25 1 California for full commercialization of hydrogen vehicles 2 and stations. 3 And in Phase 1 we believe this can be 4 accomplished by the Year 2010. And it would include 2,000 5 hydrogen light-duty vehicles. And those would include 6 hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicles and hydrogen 7 fuel cell vehicles. And we believe that to support these 8 number of vehicles we would need 50 to 100 fueling 9 stations. 10 Phase 2 would increase the number of stations to 11 250 to support 10,000 light-duty vehicles. 12 And then in Phase 3 we would see a doubling of 13 the utilization of the hydrogen stations with 20,000 14 vehicles. 15 You may notice this last row, stationary off-road 16 vehicle applications. This includes the idea of an energy 17 station that I believe Ron Friesen will discuss a little 18 bit later. 19 --o0o-- 20 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 21 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: To give you an idea of the 22 station buildup philosophy that goes along with these 23 different phases, I have a couple of maps to show you. 24 And what these maps indicate is that the way we 25 want to build up the hydrogen stations is -- initially you PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 26 1 saw a map that there was a station every 20 miles along 2 California's interstate freeways. But what we've learned 3 using some of the research at UC Davis, UCLA, and the 4 guidance of the California Fuel Cell Partnership is that 5 if we cluster these stations in the densely urban areas in 6 California, like the San Francisco Bay Area and Sacramento 7 or the L.A. area and San Diego, that we'll get higher 8 utilization of the stations. More people can own the 9 vehicles and be able to fuel. 10 So with 50 stations in each of these two areas, 11 most folks would be within ten minutes of a hydrogen 12 station. And when these numbers are built up to 250 13 stations, consumers are usually within five minutes of a 14 hydrogen station. And so you can see where people could 15 start to live their lives normally and they wouldn't have 16 to always think about, "I'm driving this hydrogen vehicle. 17 I have to get fuel." 18 The other thing that's very important about our 19 plan is that we're not stressing so much individual 20 demonstration projects, which has been the DOE objective 21 to date and has been where the industry's been heading. 22 But we want to see California be the first place where 23 there's a network of stations. And that means that 24 there's third-party accessibility and so that folks can 25 use the different stations so they can go ahead and live PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 27 1 their lives. If none of these are third-party accessible, 2 then the plan does not work. 3 --o0o-- 4 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 5 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: So you'd build up the stations in 6 these two urban areas and then you would link them with 7 stations along one of the interstates that links the two 8 areas. So I could drive around in Sacramento, the Bay 9 Area, drive down to L.A. or San Diego and get around 10 without feeling encumbered by getting fuel. 11 --o0o-- 12 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 13 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: There are environmental goals 14 that are associated with the plan that are very important. 15 And those environmental goals are that we'd like 16 to see by the Year 2010 from an aggregate of all of the 17 stations and vehicles a 30-percent reduction in greenhouse 18 gas emissions relative to a comparable number of today's 19 fuels and vehicles. 20 --o0o-- 21 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 22 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: And we'd also like to see 20 23 percent new renewable resources used in the production of 24 hydrogen for the use in the vehicles and increasing 25 thereafter. We believe -- oh, thank you. We believe that PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 28 1 it's important to begin thinking about hydrogen coming 2 from renewables, to think about sustainability with regard 3 to our energy usage. 4 --o0o-- 5 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 6 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: Also in the plan is a 7 recommendation for investments. And those would include 8 incentives for hydrogen stations. That would include a 9 50/50 cost share for the capital costs of the stations, 10 incentives for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, and incentives 11 for the hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicles. And 12 so all totaled these incentives that we recommend come to 13 a total of $53.5 million of the state's cost share, which 14 would be leveraged many times over with the federal 15 government, local governments and, more importantly, 16 private industry. And this would occur over five years. 17 --o0o-- 18 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 19 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: Presently the Air Resources Board 20 has a spring finance letter -- or they submitted a budget 21 change proposal and then the Governor submitted a spring 22 finance letter. And the spring finance letter would 23 accommodate staff at the Air Resources Board money for 24 contracts to do additional technical work and incentives 25 that I just outlined for you. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 29 1 --o0o-- 2 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 3 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: There's also one other piece. 4 And this is also part of the action plan which is 5 implementing policies in California. And what we'd like 6 to see is Senate Bill 250 pass. This is a bill that's 7 sponsored by Senator Campbell. And it would classify 8 hydrogen as a transportation fuel and it would direct the 9 Department of Food and Ag's Division of Measurement 10 Standards to develop specifications for hydrogen as a 11 transportation fuel. 12 So what this would do is send a signal to the 13 locals that if you have your land zoned for a fueling 14 station -- hydrogen is a transportation fuel. The state 15 recognizes it. And it would be appropriate to put that 16 station in an area zoned for fueling stations. 17 It also would allow for hydrogen to be sold in 18 California. Presently it's sold as a service. And it's 19 approximated the price by the approximate kilograms. 20 Letting the Division of Measurement Standards -- they 21 would be able to set standards, purity and flow rate 22 standards. 23 So we believe that would be a very important step 24 in California. 25 --o0o-- PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 30 1 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 2 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: And, finally, I think a few of 3 our implementation advisory panel members are here, and 4 I'd like to recognize them if they are. 5 If you'd just please stand up. 6 There's Cynthia Verdugo-Peralta, Al Weaverstadt, 7 Ed Kjaer, Rick Morrow, and Ben Knight. Thank you so much. 8 I appreciate your work. 9 (Applause.) 10 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 11 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: And with that, I'd like to turn 12 this over to Catherine. 13 --o0o-- 14 MS. DUNWOODY: Okay. Thank you very much, 15 Shannon. And Madam Chairwoman and members of the Board. 16 It's a pleasure to be here this morning to present to you 17 the activities of the California Fuel Cell Partnership's 18 collaborative demonstration program. 19 --o0o-- 20 MS. DUNWOODY: We were formed six years ago. And 21 the Air Resources Board was a founding member of this 22 organization. We had eight original members and have 23 since joined -- since grown to 32 members representing 24 automotive, energy, technology -- fuel cell technology, 25 and government entities in California and, in fact, around PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 31 1 the world. 2 We have a joint demonstration facility that's 3 located just across the river in West Sacramento. 4 --o0o-- 5 MS. DUNWOODY: The California Fuel Cell 6 Partnership is a unique organization. We are a 7 public/private collaborative. We make our decisions by 8 consensus of our 21 member steering team committee. We 9 have very diverse members, as you saw in the previous 10 slide. And, in essence, we bring competitors together to 11 collaborate on a common goal. 12 --o0o-- 13 MS. DUNWOODY: And that common goal -- oh, dear. 14 I'm sorry. I've got a terrible -- there we go. 15 That common goal is expressed in our mission 16 statement. And, that is, to promote fuel cell vehicle 17 commercialization as a means of moving towards a more 18 sustainable energy future, from both an environmental 19 standpoint and an energy efficiency standpoint. 20 --o0o-- 21 MS. DUNWOODY: Clearly hydrogen when used in a 22 fuel cell provides significant environmental and energy 23 efficiency benefits. Fuel cell vehicles are in the 24 demonstration phase at this point. They're not yet 25 commercially available. But they hold tremendous PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 32 1 potential for the future. They offer improved vehicle 2 performance, number 1. These are fun cars to drive. They 3 have great acceleration and wonderful performance. They 4 offer the potential for energy independence from petroleum 5 fuels. They offer zero emission transportation and they 6 offer reduced greenhouse gases. 7 It's interesting to note that, although the 8 partnership has been working together for six years, it's 9 the only been three years that we have worked 10 collaboratively together and exclusively on hydrogen as 11 the fuel for these vehicles. When we started this 12 organization there were thoughts of having methanol 13 reformers on board vehicles, gasoline reformers on board 14 vehicles. But clearly the members have determined at this 15 point that hydrogen is the preferred fuel for this 16 technology, and we're moving in that direction. 17 --o0o-- 18 MS. DUNWOODY: A little bit about the 19 organization. How do we go about achieving our mission? 20 In essence, the members of the partnership have 21 established a leading information resource and exchange 22 forum for themselves, for their stakeholders and for the 23 public as we move toward this commercial market. 24 --o0o-- 25 MS. DUNWOODY: We share learnings from the PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 33 1 real-world demonstration programs. What the members want 2 to do is to experience and build on that experience that 3 comes out of the individual demonstration programs. Even 4 if it's what Shell Hydrogen learns at one of their fueling 5 stations, they pass that along to the other members as 6 well. So we only have to do things once and then apply it 7 to the next situation. 8 --o0o-- 9 MS. DUNWOODY: We work collaboratively to develop 10 technical solutions. I'll explain a few more of those in 11 a moment. 12 --o0o-- 13 MS. DUNWOODY: We provide training. We have 14 significant in-house expertise amongst our members on 15 safety. And we have a very active first responder 16 training program. 17 --o0o-- 18 MS. DUNWOODY: And we do public outreach. After 19 the press event we will have a ride-and-drive with many of 20 our members' vehicles. And the public will have a chance 21 and you all will have a chance to experience these 22 vehicles firsthand. 23 --o0o-- 24 MS. DUNWOODY: Currently our members have placed 25 87 cars and 5 buses on public roads in California. We aim PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 34 1 to have 300 fuel cell vehicles by the end of 2007. 2 There's currently 16 fueling stations open, and they're 3 indicated on this map in the background. Ten new stations 4 are scheduled to open in 2005. 5 We actually have an interactive website map where 6 public can get more detailed information about each of 7 these programs. And that's at our website cafcp.org. 8 Now, I'd like to real quickly run through some of 9 our members' programs to give you an idea of exactly 10 what's happening in California communities today. 11 --o0o-- 12 MS. DUNWOODY: I'll start off with Honda. 13 Honda's placed vehicles with municipalities, city 14 governments in California, with the City of Los Angeles, 15 the City of San Francisco, and the City of Chula Vista, as 16 well as with the South Coast Air Quality Management 17 District. 18 --o0o-- 19 MS. DUNWOODY: DaimlerChrysler has placed 20 vehicles throughout California, and primarily again 21 located in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and the Sacramento 22 areas. 23 --o0o-- 24 MS. DUNWOODY: Toyota has vehicles placed with 25 the University of California at both Irvine and Davis. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 35 1 --o0o-- 2 MS. DUNWOODY: Ford will be -- I'm sorry -- 3 General Motors will be placing vehicles primarily located 4 in southern California. 5 --o0o-- 6 MS. DUNWOODY: Hyundai has vehicles that will be 7 operating in the Los Angeles and the San Francisco areas. 8 And they recently opened a fueling station in Chino a 9 couple of months ago, along with their partner Chevron. 10 --o0o-- 11 MS. DUNWOODY: Ford's vehicles will primarily be 12 located in the Sacramento area. 13 --o0o-- 14 MS. DUNWOODY: For buses, AC Transit will be 15 taking delivery of three fuel cell buses; and SunLine 16 Transit will be taking delivery of one bus this fall. 17 There's a fueling station that will be built by 18 Chevron. And perhaps you've seen some of the ads that 19 have been running in major worldwide publications such as 20 the Economist where Chevron is really highlighting their 21 activities in California, in particular with AC Transit 22 and the buses. 23 These buses are fuel cell hybrid buses. They're 24 being integrated by a California company, ISE Corporation, 25 located in the San Diego area. And they will be operating PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 36 1 this fall. In fact, we may get a preview of this bus next 2 week at World Environment Day. 3 --o0o-- 4 MS. DUNWOODY: Santa Clara VTA has been operating 5 their buses for a couple of months now. These are built 6 by a California bus manufacturer, Gillig, located in the 7 Bay Area. They have Ballard fuel cells. And they're 8 operating in everyday service in the Silicon Valley today. 9 --o0o-- 10 MS. DUNWOODY: So with all of these programs 11 happening and all of the experience that our members are 12 gaining, what are we doing with this information and how 13 is it relevant to the Hydrogen Highway Network? 14 Right now we have these demonstration programs 15 active. We want to move toward a future where the 16 technology of the fuel cell vehicles can be 17 commercialized. To get there we do need the practical 18 real-world experience of the California Fuel Cell 19 Partnership as well as the public policy visionary drivers 20 of the California Hydrogen Highway Network. 21 --o0o-- 22 MS. DUNWOODY: Together we can help move from the 23 demonstrations of today to the commercial markets of 24 tomorrow. So I'm going to give you some examples of the 25 practical experience that the partnership offers. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 37 1 --o0o-- 2 MS. DUNWOODY: Accessibility to fueling stations 3 is critically important. Ideally any vehicle operated by 4 any driver should be able to fuel at any station at any 5 time. Unfortunately this isn't yet the case in 6 California. Factors such as physical access, technology 7 interface, training, and payment methods should be 8 consistent so that hydrogen is easy for consumers to 9 obtain and easy for energy companies to provide. Through 10 our collaborative process we will be making 11 recommendations regarding guidelines for accessibility for 12 California fueling stations. 13 --o0o-- 14 MS. DUNWOODY: The interactive map that I 15 mentioned earlier is a way for fuel cell vehicles 16 operators to know where to fuel their vehicles. We 17 launched this interactive map on our website just a couple 18 of months ago. And we're going to work closely with the 19 Hydrogen Highway Network to share and sustain this tool 20 over time. 21 --o0o-- 22 MS. DUNWOODY: One of the areas that we've been 23 very actively engaged with the partnership is in 24 technology interface. Fueling with hydrogen, it's a 25 gaseous fuel, and it's different than fueling with a PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 38 1 liquid, so different issues arise. Our technical programs 2 focus on the interface between the vehicle and the fueling 3 station. And this has been critically important given 4 that eight different auto makers have used a single common 5 station at our West Sacramento facility for the past five 6 years. 7 Our work has focused on hardware, such as fueling 8 nozzles, fueling performance -- that's things such as 9 temperature, pressure, fill time and completeness of fill 10 and hydrogen quality. And we will be providing 11 consensus-based protocols in these and other areas of 12 inter-operability. 13 --o0o-- 14 MS. DUNWOODY: One of the technical devices that 15 was established last year is the station testing 16 apparatus. This device mimics a vehicle and can assess 17 the performance of fueling stations to promote safe and 18 complete fills. And this device will be available for the 19 state to use for the operating costs only through an -- 20 that's through an independent contractor. 21 --o0o-- 22 MS. DUNWOODY: As I mentioned, we have a program 23 to train first responders in California. We have trained 24 over 300 first responders directly ourselves to date. We 25 also recently produced an emergency response video to go PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 39 1 along with our guidebook for first responders. We're 2 working closely with national and state efforts to move 3 this training program into a regular program for first 4 responders -- the established training programs for first 5 responders. 6 --o0o-- 7 MS. DUNWOODY: And then, finally, we have a very 8 active community outreach program. We found that it's 9 vitally important to create local advocates for fuel cell 10 vehicle and hydrogen programs in California communities. 11 Local officials, first responders, businesses and the 12 public need to understand this technology and the benefits 13 it can provide, not only so that they feel comfortable, 14 but that they can then spread the word to the people that 15 are in the communities. And we have a strong established 16 program that we will work with the Hydrogen Highway 17 Network to coordinate these demonstration activities. 18 --o0o-- 19 MS. DUNWOODY: In short, California leads the 20 world in fuel cell vehicle and hydrogen programs through 21 the California Fuel Cell Partnership and the California 22 Hydrogen Highway Network. We're working together and 23 making good progress toward a future where this technology 24 can provide real benefits to California citizens and the 25 world. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 40 1 --o0o-- 2 MS. DUNWOODY: Thank you very much. 3 Now, I'd like to hand the microphone over to Ron 4 Friesen, Executive Director of the California Stationary 5 Fuel Cell Collaborative. 6 --o0o-- 7 MR. FRIESEN: Thank you very much, Madam 8 Chairwoman and members of the Board. 9 I would like to tell you a little bit today about 10 the California Stationary Fuel Cell Collaborative and its 11 members, provide you some background information on 12 stationary fuel cells, and some of the recent developments 13 that we've seen from some of the manufacturers. 14 I guess I need to push the button. 15 There we go. 16 --o0o-- 17 MR. FRIESEN: And then provide you some 18 information on how stationary fuel cells will play a 19 significant role in the Hydrogen Highway Network. 20 --o0o-- 21 MR. FRIESEN: The California Stationary Fuel Cell 22 Collaborative is a key initiative of the Air Resources 23 Board, just like the partnership, as well as the 24 California National Fuel Cell Research Center at UC 25 Irvine. It was established by senior executives to PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 41 1 advance the commercialization of stationary fuel cells. 2 As with the partnership, the organization of the 3 collaborative is unique and innovative as well, and its 4 operating core is anchored in various government agencies 5 that I have listed here on the slide. 6 What this allows for is key strategic issues 7 associated with policy, regulation and legislative action 8 to be addressed very efficiently along with members of the 9 industry. 10 There's considerable interest on the part of 11 industry to work with the collaborative, including members 12 of the fuel cell manufacturing industry, utilities, 13 end-users, and other non-government organizations working 14 together to try to accomplish commercialization in as 15 effective and efficient manner as we possibly can. 16 As you can see, the co-chairs of the 17 collaborative are Dr. Lloyd, who initiated this effort in 18 the beginning, and Dr. Samuelsen, who is the Director of 19 the National Fuel Cell Research Center. 20 I have not mentioned the individual members of 21 the industry advisory panel today because we are in the 22 process of a membership drive. And it looks like we'll be 23 announcing a formal organization sometime this summer. 24 --o0o-- 25 MR. FRIESEN: This next slide represents the PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 42 1 mission of the collaborative. As you can see, many of the 2 benefits and the potential benefits of stationary fuel 3 cells as well as fuel cells used in other application have 4 already been mentioned today and you can see those listed 5 here. 6 In pursuing its mission, the collaborative 7 envisions fuel cell installations at state, local and 8 private institutions as well as by private entities. And 9 I'll present some examples of those today. 10 Also, California represents a very critical 11 market for the fuel cell industry. And we've seen a 12 significant amount of activity and investment in 13 California by the fuel cell community and by other 14 government entities such as the Department of Energy and 15 the Department of Defense. 16 --o0o-- 17 MR. FRIESEN: This slide presents the different 18 types of fuel cells that are out there in the market today 19 and some of the characteristics of these fuel cells. 20 Basically, as you can see from the slide, the application 21 of fuel cells is dependent upon the specific 22 characteristics such as temperature and other operating 23 characteristics. And I'll show you some examples of how 24 all of these fuel cells can be used in various stationary 25 applications. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 43 1 --o0o-- 2 MR. FRIESEN: Here we show that stationary fuel 3 cells can provide power for different types of 4 application. 5 The first category there, stationary and 6 distributed power, is power generation that we refer to as 7 distributed generation, or DG. And DG has been defined by 8 many organizations. But generally it's the generation of 9 electrical power and thermal energy at the location where 10 a substantial fraction of the product is used. 11 In other words it's not distributed through 12 transmission lines from a central station powerplant. 13 And generally DG is electrical power in the range 14 of a few kilowatts to 50 megawatts. 15 We're also very interested in the use of portable 16 power for battery replacement. And you can see several 17 applications that I've listed there on the slide. 18 --o0o-- 19 MR. FRIESEN: Fuel cells used in distributed 20 generation are identified here. We have several examples 21 of companies that have manufactured fuel cells for various 22 applications. And as you can see, with the high cost of 23 local power these days, the fuel cells are becoming more 24 and more attractive. 25 The fuel cell today can, depending on the current PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 44 1 electrical cost, demonstrate substantial savings in 2 operating costs. The original cost of fuel cells is still 3 rather high. But there's many incentive programs 4 available in California and at the federal level that 5 provide a reduction in the initial cost of the fuel cells. 6 The other interesting thing to note here is the 7 possible development on the world market where distributed 8 generation has the paradigm of offering a cost savings in 9 parts of the world where they have no central station 10 powerplants or distributed generation -- or distributed 11 transmission of electrical power. It's similar to the 12 cellular phone analogy. We could go directly to 13 distributed generation. 14 --o0o-- 15 MR. FRIESEN: Here are some examples of portable 16 power applications and products that have been developed. 17 And I'd like to point out today that Altergy Systems is a 18 manufacturer of fuel cells here in the Sacramento area. 19 And we have an Altergy unit operating as we speak here. 20 It's running the laptop computer behind me. 21 Altergy fuel cell systems was one of the first 22 companies to join the Fuel Cell Collaborative, and they 23 have a member in the audience. 24 This particular unit is owned by CalTrans, also a 25 member of our organization, who are actively looking at PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 45 1 how they can install fuel cells for various applications 2 in the CalTrans system. 3 --o0o-- 4 MR. FRIESEN: I won't go through all the details 5 of the next two slides. But these two slides are here to 6 demonstrate that there has been a significant amount of 7 activity by some of the major manufacturers of fuel cells. 8 And as you can see, many systems have been developed and 9 are out there operating and in logging a lot of hours. 10 All of this has led us to the potential for some very 11 important installations in California. I just want to 12 give you a few examples. 13 Plug Power has a unit operating now in Yosemite 14 National Park. It's a five kilowatt unit that's providing 15 all the power that's needed for the headquarters office 16 there in the park. So if any of you are traveling to 17 Yosemite, you should stop by and take a look at that. 18 United Technology's fuel cell has three units 19 that are providing all the heating and cooling for the 20 federal building in downtown Fresno. And those units were 21 just installed this last year. 22 FuelCell Energy has been quite active in 23 California. We have two units that have been providing 24 power for the City of Santa Barbara using bio-digester gas 25 from the city's waste water treatment plant. And they're PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 46 1 showing a significant cost savings in energy generation at 2 that plant. 3 FuelCell Energy will be having a dedication for 4 two units that are operating the Sierra Nevada Brewing 5 Company in Chico, California, as well. 6 BOARD MEMBER LOVERIDGE: That's good. 7 (Laughter.) 8 MR. FRIESEN: So when you have your Sierra Nevada 9 Pale Ale, You'll think about fuel cells. 10 (Laughter.) 11 MR. FRIESEN: Siemens Westinghouse is not quite 12 on the market yet. They've had a lot of demonstration. 13 But, importantly, they have installed a unit at the 14 University of California at Irvine and they've made it a 15 hybrid with a gas turbine. And they've been demonstrating 16 efficiencies in the neighborhood of 70 percent. So we see 17 that as a potential future technology that will be very 18 beneficial from a system's electrical point of view. 19 --o0o-- 20 MR. FRIESEN: With that background then I just 21 wanted to briefly tell you a little bit about what the 22 collaborative is doing and how it's participating on the 23 hydrogen highway. 24 This slide shows eight specific tasks that we are 25 working on. But the one that I wanted to highlight PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 47 1 specifically for today is number 5 there, the support of 2 the Hydrogen Highway Network implementation. 3 --o0o-- 4 MR. FRIESEN: We've been quite active working 5 with Shannon and others in the development of the Hydrogen 6 Highway Blueprint Plan. And I've listed several things 7 that we have done at this point in time, including a 8 positive position statement in support of the highway. 9 And of course the statement represents the manufacturers 10 an all the end-users who have come together to support 11 this effort. 12 We've identified specific features that would be 13 a part of the Hydrogen Highway Plan. We've identified the 14 number of energy stations that could be included in the 15 highway and provided some other technical backup reports 16 and so forth to support what is going on. 17 --o0o-- 18 MR. FRIESEN: I'd like to just briefly show you a 19 couple of examples of how stationary fuel cells can be 20 integrated into the Hydrogen Highway Network. 21 This slide is just simply a distributed 22 generation product such as a fuel cell or solar power or a 23 micro-turbine generator that is used to provide 24 electricity and thermal heat for some external use, such 25 as an office building or some other application. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 48 1 I want to note there that the fuel that's 2 provided to these products can be from renewable sources, 3 such as bio-digester gas, landfill gas and other blends 4 with natural gas. This is of course the goal that we 5 ultimately hope to achieve. 6 The dotted line up there just represents the 7 potential for using some of this product for hydrogen 8 refueling. And I'll give you two or three examples of how 9 that can be done. 10 --o0o-- 11 MR. FRIESEN: This slide shows that if you can 12 produce electricity and thermal heat for some external 13 use, in some of the products there's some additional 14 hydrogen that's available. They don't use all the 15 hydrogen to provide the heat and power. And that hydrogen 16 can be provided to also fuel a vehicle. 17 So what we see here is the potential for the 18 spreading of the cost across two different types of 19 applications and of course the ultimate lowering of the 20 cost of the hydrogen for fueling vehicles. 21 --o0o-- 22 MR. FRIESEN: This is just another variation of 23 the same type of thing. Only in this case some of the 24 natural gas is used before it goes into the device and is 25 run through a natural gas reformer. And then the PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 49 1 hydrogen's extracted and then used for refueling. 2 --o0o-- 3 MR. FRIESEN: In this case, the same diagram -- 4 only in this case the electricity from the distributed 5 generation unit is used for an electrolyzer. And, again, 6 hydrogen is extracted and used for hydrogen refueling. 7 --o0o-- 8 MR. FRIESEN: These are all examples of how 9 stationary distributed generation technologies can be used 10 in the Hydrogen Highway Plan. And the Stationary Fuel 11 Cell Collaborative has dedicated one of its tasks and its 12 members to supporting this implementation of the Hydrogen 13 Highway Plan. And you can see several items here that we 14 are specifically working on. 15 In summary, I just wanted to say that what we 16 plan to do is to fully develop the energy station design 17 strategy, continue to work on the evolution of high 18 temperature fuel cells for co-production of heat and power 19 and to provide advocacy for public education and outreach 20 as well as help identify specific sites where these things 21 will be located. 22 That completes my presentation. And I'm open to 23 any questions that you might have. 24 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Thank you all very 25 much. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 50 1 Ms. Witherspoon, any comments? 2 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: No. We just 3 wanted to provide an opportunity for the Board to ask 4 questions at this point. 5 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: All right. And 6 we'll take that opportunity in just a moment. 7 I want to thank the three speakers. And it shows 8 me that you're really making great strides. It's really 9 very impressive about the work that you're doing and the 10 future that we have with this. 11 I'm sorry that Dr. Lloyd had to step out a moment 12 ago, because I wanted to thank him, because I think he's 13 played a key leadership role in this and in inspiring all 14 of you and those who are in the private sector to join the 15 effort. It's truly incredible, the strides that you've 16 made. 17 Let me open it up to Board questions at this 18 time. 19 Board members, let me start to my left here. 20 Mayor Loveridge. 21 BOARD MEMBER LOVERIDGE: Several sort of big 22 picture questions. 23 But as I understand from the comments, that if 24 you look around the world, not simply in the United States 25 but around the world and try to find a leader in this, we PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 51 1 are the leader, is that correct? I mean that's -- there's 2 no one else that's somehow further ahead in developing 3 infrastructure, et cetera? 4 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: That's correct. 5 BOARD MEMBER LOVERIDGE: One of the -- I think 6 the first presentation you have these phases, three 7 phases, but there's no time listed. Or maybe you said it 8 but I didn't hear it. Phase 1, Phase 2, Phase 3. What's 9 the timeline on those three phases? 10 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 11 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: Sure. That's a good question. 12 Phase 1, our time -- our milestone is the Year 13 2010. And that's what our advisory panel, who is made up 14 of implementers of this technology, could agree to. 15 Now, we will incorporate biennial reviews. So 16 every two years we'll go through a process of looking at 17 where's the technology, how effective is our program, how 18 is the state moving forward, and then we'll revise where 19 we think we are and how we need to move forward. 20 We actually did not put a timeframe on Phase 2 21 and Phase 3. We felt like it was more credible to just 22 put that time frame on Phase 1. 23 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: If I may 24 elaborate on that answer. The Department of Energy has a 25 similar structure for the expansion of hydrogen. And PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 52 1 they've added between the phases performance tests to tell 2 you that you're ready to move to the next level. And 3 so -- and California is drawing on that experience, and 4 our partners are as well, to say that the readiness is 5 such that -- ready to multiply the number of vehicles that 6 we've proved out whatever the technological barrier is and 7 move up to many more. 8 BOARD MEMBER LOVERIDGE: I guess there's an 9 obvious question, Catherine, that you have when you look 10 at phases. And optimistically, I mean if the first one is 11 2010, others are somewhere -- we're still talking about a 12 fairly small number of vehicles. That even Phase 3, which 13 sounds like it may be 2020 or later, you're only talking 14 about 20,000 vehicles. And how many do we have on the 15 road right now in California? 16 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: What was that 17 number? About a hundred. 18 BOARD MEMBER LOVERIDGE: All vehicles? 19 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: To have hydrogen, 20 yes. 21 BOARD MEMBER LOVERIDGE: No, no. 22 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: Fuel cell. 23 Oh, 28 million, yes. 24 BOARD MEMBER LOVERIDGE: Yeah, okay. Sorry. I 25 mean -- PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 53 1 CALEPA SPECIAL ADVISOR ON HYDROGEN & ALTERNATIVE 2 ENERGY BAXTER-CLEMMONS: Didn't you carpool? 3 (Laughter.) 4 BOARD MEMBER LOVERIDGE: That's not what I find 5 when I go outside. 6 Well, let's just take that 28 million versus 7 20,000 thousand. What's that percentage? 8 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: It's too small to 9 calculate. 10 BOARD MEMBER LOVERIDGE: Yeah, we're not -- but I 11 mean the point I think, which seems to me important, is 12 that rather than simply kind of an experimental emphasis, 13 which I think deserves the kind of applause offered, I 14 mean why shouldn't this have a kind of -- kind of 15 interstate freeway? Why shouldn't this, you know -- and 16 rather than look at 2010 with -- why isn't there some more 17 harder commitment to really changing. So rather than have 18 it be an small percentage of something like 28 million, 19 that we're indeed aggressively are going to change what we 20 find on the roads in our lifetime. Because the current 21 pattern we'll get us experiments, but doesn't get us to 22 a -- I don't really like the word -- but a paradigm shift. 23 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: I think the 24 answer is that it's all about technological readiness. 25 And we've learned ourselves through our experience with PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 54 1 battery electric vehicles that mandating penetration does 2 not make it so. It inspires all kinds of activity. It 3 inspires very close competitors to the ultimate goal, such 4 as the PZEVs in the standard gasoline technology, the 5 advent of hybrids. But until the vehicles in fact have 6 accomplished ten time reductions across sort of all 7 aspects of their operation, the durability of the fuel 8 cell and the capacity of the fuel tank, the price of the 9 individual components, we won't be ready to mandate that 10 degree of penetration. 11 And then the federal government won't be ready to 12 spend, nor will the industry, on an international fueling 13 system until they likewise see that the market is ready. 14 And the reason we formed the fuel cell partnership six 15 years ago was to put energy companies across the table 16 from car companies so they could look each other in the 17 eye and understand a) that the car companies were 18 absolutely committed to this, and that the energy 19 companies could assess that for themselves without 20 prodding from the government what the true market 21 potential was, and that they could decide when to put 22 their dollars forward to assist us in reaching these 23 goals. Because it can't be a hundred percent government 24 mandated either. 25 And if Tom Cackette wants to get into this, why PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 55 1 don't -- 2 BOARD MEMBER LOVERIDGE: Yeah, I wasn't so much 3 pursuing the mandated question, but just the kind of 4 question as: How do you begin to have a kind of -- and 5 maybe hybrids, which I'm -- and I'm delighted to drive a 6 Prius around. But it seems to me maybe that's the kind of 7 bridging, kind of. 8 But it's just that -- besides doing good, it 9 seems to me you'd like to -- I mean if I asked you the 10 question: When would you expect to get on the -- one of 11 the California interstates and have a majority of cars be 12 something other than gasoline? 13 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: Me personally? 14 (Laughter.) 15 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: Well, I'm looking 16 at Tom. 17 He said way after 2020, a majority of. I mean I 18 think we'll see many more in the 2015-2020 time frame. 19 CHIEF DEPUTY EXECUTIVE OFFICER CACKETTE: I mean 20 recognize that what your question implies is a turnover of 21 the fleet, which is at least a ten-year effort there. So 22 even after the vehicles are commercialized and every one 23 being sold is a fuel cell, it'll take another ten years. 24 So we're talking about all the vehicles or a lot of them 25 being hydrogen, you know, way into the decades away. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 56 1 But we're not going to get there if we don't 2 start. And the challenges that are so momentous at the 3 moment, you know, just need to be dealt with I think on a 4 small scale so that we walk before we run. And we all 5 want to run, but it's -- 6 BOARD MEMBER LOVERIDGE: Okay. I'll retreat. 7 But I was just looking for the date and we go outside and 8 we get into a -- we have a traffic congestion of other 9 kind of vehicles. 10 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Fuel cell cars. All 11 right. 12 Supervisor Roberts. 13 BOARD MEMBER ROBERTS: Well, I was just thinking 14 that one of the things that may not have been present in 15 this presentation but was when we got into this is sort of 16 the development and all the problems that have to be 17 solved and the evolution of the -- you know, do the 18 research, get the feedback, redesign the product. And 19 where we saw waves of these other -- the numbers may not 20 be large, but the way they -- the development process here 21 I think has been very well thought out with respect to how 22 you really moved this issue technologically over time. 23 And I think while we're all excited, I guess some of us 24 were here, once we were all excited about the batteries 25 and the technologies that we're going to develop and we're PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 57 1 going to all be driving electric cars by now. I'm very 2 satisfied that this program's maybe going along in a more 3 thoughtful way. And in spite of some enormous costs, I 4 like this chicken and the egg thing that's happening. 5 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: So true. 6 Thank you. 7 Dr. Gong. 8 BOARD MEMBER GONG: I just have several small 9 picture questions for my own interest and clarification. 10 You mentioned in several slides about first 11 responders. What do you mean training first responders? 12 What do you mean by that? Are you worried about fires 13 from the actual hydrogen filling stations or -- I didn't 14 quite understand that. Would you clarify that? 15 MS. DUNWOODY: Sure. Yeah, I'd be glad to 16 clarify that. 17 What we do at the California Fuel Cell 18 Partnership is primarily to train firefighters in the 19 vehicle technology and to show them, for example, where is 20 the hydrogen stored on board; where are the electrical 21 components; if they need to come into a fuel cell vehicle 22 with a jaws of life, where can they safely cut into the 23 vehicle without running into those lines? We have a 24 guidebook that has diagrams showing electrical, showing 25 hydrogen lines for all of the different vehicles that our PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 58 1 members put out on a road. 2 We feel that it's very important. We've been 3 fortunate to not have had any accidents. But we want to 4 shake sure that the people in the communities that are 5 putting their lives on the line when they do respond know 6 what the vehicles have on board. 7 And they've been very -- we've been very -- it's 8 been very well received. 9 Interestingly, since we started this program 10 about three years ago, the questions that we're getting 11 from the firefighters have much less to do about hydrogen 12 and much more to do with the electrical componentry tree 13 on board the vehicle. 14 We also of course do quite a bit of outreach and 15 our members do a lot of outreach when they put in a 16 hydrogen fueling station. The fire departments are key in 17 getting those permitted in the California communities. So 18 there's a lot of education that goes on about the fire -- 19 the hydrogen stations themselves. 20 BOARD MEMBER GONG: Sounds like there's a very 21 good safety track record so far -- 22 MS. DUNWOODY: Absolutely. That's the number 23 one -- 24 BOARD MEMBER GONG: -- both for the cars and for 25 the refueling stations. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 59 1 There's been no public concern about having a 2 hydrogen fueling station put in their neighborhood, I 3 assume, because of this outreach? 4 MS. DUNWOODY: Yeah, we really focus in on 5 getting into the community and doing education early on. 6 And that's made a world of difference. People understand 7 it much better and they're much more accepting. 8 BOARD MEMBER GONG: How do you put out a hydrogen 9 fire? 10 MS. DUNWOODY: Very similar to a conventional 11 fire. You use water. But it depends on whether or not 12 you have a liquid hydrogen -- liquid hydrogen source. You 13 don't want to put water on liquid hydrogen because it's so 14 cold. It will freeze and turn to ice. 15 The other way to do it is to shut off the source. 16 That's the primary way to do it, is shut off the source of 17 the hydrogen. And the vehicles that are on the road have 18 built-in systems that on any kind of impact will shut off 19 the source of hydrogen from the tank. 20 So a lot of redundant safety features built in. 21 BOARD MEMBER GONG: And I was just wondering on a 22 practical aspect. How many miles do you foresee per fill 23 up? Is that how you would say it? I don't know what the 24 metric you would use, but -- 25 MS. DUNWOODY: Sure, that's the range of the PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 60 1 vehicle. And currently the vehicles that are on the road 2 have a range of anywhere between 100 and 200 miles before 3 they need to refuel. And that shows the range of type of 4 vehicle that the manufacturers are putting out, everything 5 from the very small passenger car to a larger SUV. And 6 the mileage ability is, you know, anywhere in that range. 7 Clearly we need to improve that. Hydrogen 8 storage is one of the challenges that is between here and 9 commercialization. There's a lot of work that's being 10 done, a lot of promising work with not only high pressure 11 hydrogen, but also other ways of storing hydrogen on board 12 the vehicle that can move us towards a 300-mile-range-plus 13 vehicle. 14 BOARD MEMBER GONG: And, finally, the fuel cells 15 themselves, do they have a certain life span? I mean do 16 you have to change them every so many fill ups or 17 whatever? 18 MS. DUNWOODY: Well, the goal is that they will 19 last of course the life of the vehicle. And that is one 20 of the key reasons why the auto companies are doing these 21 validation programs in real-world operating conditions. 22 They've got a lot of data on a test stand in a laboratory. 23 But to put these things on the road in very harsh 24 operating conditions is critical to proving it out. And 25 they're making great progress in that regard. The PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 61 1 durability is improving significantly. 2 BOARD MEMBER GONG: One last comment. It's 3 amazing that the emissions from the hydrogen car or 4 vehicle is basically water; is that correct? 5 MS. DUNWOODY: Yes. 6 BOARD MEMBER GONG: Is there any way for any 7 contamination to get into that system? And I'm not an 8 engineer. But lubricants or whatever can get into that 9 system as well? I don't know. 10 MS. DUNWOODY: The water that comes out of the 11 tailpipe is quite pure. I mean some people have even gone 12 as far as to drink it. I'm not sure I'd recommend that. 13 But it is quite pure. 14 So is that what you're asking? 15 BOARD MEMBER GONG: But if there's a malfunction 16 in the system, is it possible for contaminants to get into 17 that exhaust as far as we know? 18 MS. DUNWOODY: Not that I'm aware of, no. 19 BOARD MEMBER GONG: Okay. 20 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Thank you. 21 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: Dr. Gong, we've 22 ended up focusing on fuel cells because the second or 23 third presentation were about that. But I just want to 24 remind the Board that there are hydrogen internal 25 combustion engines as well, which are not zero emitting PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 62 1 because combustion is involved. Though when we recently 2 visited with BMW manufacturing in Germany, they showed us 3 their latest rendition with after treatment and are ready 4 to prove the case to us that they have a near zero -- 5 virtually zero automobile. 6 And so the combustion process though is a little 7 bit different and the answer would be different than what 8 Catherine was just giving you. 9 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Comments, questions? 10 Yes, Supervisor DeSaulnier. 11 BOARD MEMBER DeSAULNIER: Well, first off, I 12 apologize for being late. Having heard much of this 13 before. 14 I think one of the things that Ron brought up is 15 so important. And I hope we don't -- having somewhat 16 different feelings about the ZEV ruling. You know, 17 there's still somewhere out there locked in the basement 18 somewhere a -- I think a rechargeable electric battery for 19 25 cents that someone's hiding. But -- 20 (Laughter.) 21 BOARD MEMBER DeSAULNIER: -- Oliver Stone will do 22 a movie about it some day. 23 (Laughter.) 24 BOARD MEMBER DeSAULNIER: But I think one of the 25 things that's really important for me, and I think for PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 63 1 this Board, is to use the bully pulpit we have, and to 2 what Ron said, at the appropriate level. We don't want to 3 get too far ahead of ourselves to be unrealistic. 4 But on the other hand I think we should be 5 pushing and maybe a little bit more than we are. And 6 particularly to the fuels folks, who I get a sense will 7 have an appropriate role. 8 And I'm with you, Catherine. As you know, I 9 think there's an in-between possibility. What if you had 10 Priuses that were hydrogen-fueled Priuses internal 11 combustion engines? Those kind of things would transition 12 us through this chicken and egg process to the ultimate -- 13 the gold at the end of rainbow, the fuel cell product, 14 which is maybe a long time off, but they're -- why do we 15 have to wait for that? There are some transitional things 16 that -- as we've learned here, for instance, on the ZEV 17 rule that there are other unintended actions that came to 18 play, hybrids and the development of PZEVs, that were 19 really beneficial by us pushing for that gold standard. 20 So I hope that we don't -- we don't get shy 21 about -- as an agency about pushing for this technology 22 and looking for creative ways for applications. 23 And then, secondarily, I really think it's 24 important, and I'm glad to see that it's happening, that 25 there's lots of cross pollinization just within PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 64 1 government. I remember many years ago a board member from 2 Toyota saying, "Is there one person in the California 3 government who we could have a contact with rather than 4 trying to deal with the whole bureaucracy?" And I've 5 always been a big fan, as you know, of having, for 6 instance, those discussions with Jeff Morales when he was 7 head of CalTrans that the infrastructure providers, the 8 fuel providers, the car manufacturers, and the local MPOs 9 all have to be involved in this discussion and start to 10 use some of the smart mobility things that of course UC at 11 Riverside and Irvine and Berkeley and Davis are 12 developing. 13 So I'm really excited about this, but I don't -- 14 I just hope that we don't in any way back off. And I go 15 back, Tom, many years ago we were back in Detroit talking 16 about LEV II. And there was a constant admonition from 17 the car folks that: "Don't require us to put all this 18 money into batteries when fuel cells are right around the 19 corner." And that was eight years ago. And now I'm 20 hearing beyond 2020. So I don't want to have a little 21 bait-and-switch going on the vision side that we are going 22 to push for this and we should push for other applications 23 as well. 24 And, Tom, if you have something to add, I'd be 25 delighted to hear it. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 65 1 CHIEF DEPUTY EXECUTIVE OFFICER CACKETTE: Yeah, I 2 just wanted to add that there's a constant thread here 3 that follows the original ZEV mandate from 1990 all the 4 way through the several-decade-away vision of a hydrogen 5 transportation system. And, that is, that the vehicles 6 are all electric vehicles. You know, we started out with 7 battery electric vehicles, and the issue was kind of the 8 battery. 9 But what spun out of that was the hybrid electric 10 vehicles, which right now are selling like hot cakes and, 11 you know, people have to wait in line for them. Those 12 have all the similar componentry to those original battery 13 electric vehicles. It's just that they have a gasoline 14 engine that provides the electricity instead of a plug-in 15 to the wall. 16 And what's happening here is the fuel cell 17 vehicle's exactly the same thing. It has a battery on it. 18 It's driven by an electric motor. You don't plug it in, 19 but you have a fuel cell that provides the electrons. 20 So this constant theme I think, you know, it's 21 happening in part because of the Board's action on ZEVs, 22 which pushed these technologies forward. And many of them 23 did become commercial and are now used in the hybrids and 24 will be used in the future. 25 So it's not like we're sort of a steel ball PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 66 1 bouncing off of steel walls. You know, there's actually a 2 pathway here to the future. 3 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: One other 4 comment. 5 In starting in '06 and before the Board in '07 6 you'll have your next biennial review of the ZEV mandate 7 and the penetration requirements for fuel cell vehicles 8 and for alternate technologies, and we'll have a chance to 9 sort of dig in on the entire issue. And it will be just 10 as colorful as every ZEV review has been until now. 11 BOARD MEMBER DeSAULNIER: Okay. We just can't 12 let go of the vision thing. And, you know, as somebody 13 who doesn't believe entirely in the invisible hand, I 14 think we have to keep as a regulatory agency pursuing it, 15 and I hear you doing that. Just a little bit of caution 16 that we should continue to push, but be realistic at the 17 same time. 18 Thank you. 19 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Thank you for your 20 wise words, yes. 21 BOARD MEMBER DeSAULNIER: Just call me Yoda. 22 (Laughter.) 23 BOARD MEMBER DeSAULNIER: I look like him. 24 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Let me again say 25 thank you to our partners actually that are in the room. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 67 1 And you are our partners in many of the efforts that we've 2 heard about today and look to in the future for success. 3 I just would remind the Board members, I think 4 I'm right in saying that the three presenters all had some 5 beginnings at the Air Resources Board. Am I right? 6 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: Yes, they did. 7 And they were all stolen by one entity after another. 8 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Well, that's what 9 happens to great staff people at the Air Resources Board. 10 But, anyway, thank you again very much. 11 And we will move on -- we'll just transition from 12 this to our next item, which has to do with the health 13 update. 14 So if we could change staff. 15 All right. Next item on our agenda today is 16 05-5-1, our monthly informational health update. 17 Ms. Witherspoon, would you like to introduce this 18 item please. 19 (Thereupon an overhead presentation was 20 Presented as follows.) 21 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: Yes, thank you, 22 Madam Chairman. 23 Today's health update describes findings from a 24 recent epidemiological study of pregnant women and their 25 newborns in New York City. Researchers found a PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 68 1 significant association between prenatal polyaromatic 2 hydrocarbon exposure and postnatal environmental tobacco 3 smoke exposure to the development of cough, wheeze, 4 difficulty breathing and probable asthma in newborns. In 5 essence, having PAH exposure during pregnancy and 6 environmental tobacco smoke after pregnancy worsens the 7 conditions. 8 The results of this study are important for 9 increasing our knowledge of how incidental exposures 10 during pregnancy may alter respiratory health later in 11 life. 12 Today Dr. Shelley Duteaux from the Research 13 Division will update the Board on these findings. 14 DR. DUTEAUX: Thank you, Ms. Witherspoon. 15 Good morning, Madam Chairman and members of the 16 Board. 17 In today's health update we will discuss the 18 results of an epidemiological study that evaluates the 19 possible link between prenatal exposures to air pollution 20 and respiratory health in newborns. 21 --o0o-- 22 DR. DUTEAUX: There is a growing body of evidence 23 supporting a causal link between air pollution exposures 24 early in life and adverse effects in infants and children. 25 What researchers have shown us thus far is that PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 69 1 exposure to certain ambient pollutants during pregnancy 2 may increase the risk of sudden infant death, low birth 3 weight, and a variety of other birth outcomes. Likewise, 4 researchers have demonstrated that air pollution can 5 impact the respiratory health of children as they grow and 6 develop. 7 The missing puzzle piece, however, is if or how 8 exposures to the fetus during pregnancy are related to the 9 respiratory health of infants in children. The study we 10 will review today is the first to examine this potential 11 relationship. 12 --o0o-- 13 DR. DUTEAUX: This is an epidemiological study 14 conducted by Dr. Rachel Miller and her colleagues at the 15 Columbia Center for Children's Environmental Health. Over 16 300 nonsmoking pregnant women were recruited from prenatal 17 clinics and hospitals in the Washington Heights, Harlem, 18 South Bronx neighborhoods of New York City. 19 These communities are largely Latino and 20 African-American, with median household incomes ranging 21 from 12 to $22,000 a year. 22 As seen on the map, the neighborhoods studied are 23 at the center of a very large metropolitan region 24 inundated with commercial truck traffic, diesel exhaust 25 from bus depots, and various air contaminants generated PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 70 1 from waste incinerators to powerplants and the takeoff and 2 landing corridors at LaGuardia Airport. 3 --o0o-- 4 DR. DUTEAUX: For the study, exposure assessment 5 was conducted using three methods: 6 First, questionnaires were given to each 7 participant in the third trimester of pregnancy and 8 throughout the infant's first two years of life, which 9 detailed secondhand smoke, heating and cooking sources and 10 other relevant exposures. 11 Second, individual level air sampling data were 12 collected for each participant in her third trimester. 13 Each woman carried a portable backpack monitor for 48 14 hours that measured the levels of particles as well as 15 semi-volatile vapors and aerosols. 16 Lastly, blood from the mothers was collected 17 within one day after giving birth, and umbilical cord was 18 collected at the time of delivery. These blood samples 19 were analyzed for plasma cotinine, a metabolite of 20 tobacco, that is used as a surrogate measure of exposure 21 to direct or environmental tobacco smoke. 22 After delivery the health of each baby was 23 followed closely, with special attention paid to 24 respiratory problems and early signs of asthma. 25 --o0o-- PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 71 1 DR. DUTEAUX: The investigators analyzed the 2 personal air samples for levels of polycyclic aromatic 3 hydrocarbons, also known as PAH's. PAH's were the focus 4 of this study because they are components of combustion 5 air pollution, such as diesel exhaust, residential heating 6 and tobacco smoke. They are also highly toxic and combine 7 to DNA and certain growth factors. 8 The results from the study suggest that pregnant 9 women had universal exposure to one or more PAH's, 10 averaging four nanograms per meter cubed. Exposure to 11 PAH's varied significantly among the participants. 12 However, their values were comparable to concentrations 13 measured in California. 14 Questionnaire results in plasma cotinine analysis 15 also showed that at least one-third of mothers and 16 newborns were exposed to environmental tobacco smoke. 17 Neither prenatal exposures to PAH's nor 18 environmental tobacco smoke alone were associated with 19 discernable increases in respiratory symptoms. However, 20 infants exposed to both PAH's during pregnancy and 21 environmental tobacco smoke after birth experienced 22 between 25 and 60 percent more respiratory symptoms. 23 These symptoms also worsened as the infants got older. 24 The implication being that exposure to PAH's exacerbated 25 or somehow worked in concert with environmental tobacco PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 72 1 smoke to effect the respiratory health of infants. 2 Other factors like quality of housing most likely 3 varied among participants. If these factors had a major 4 influence on the respiratory symptoms, we would have 5 expected to see an effect in the study. However, no such 6 effects were reported. 7 --o0o-- 8 DR. DUTEAUX: The results from the stud's add to 9 our knowledge of prenatal effects of air pollution and 10 complement other published research. For example, a 11 number of researchers have considered the link between 12 prenatal exposures to air pollution and various birth 13 outcomes, as summarized in this table. 14 Two southern California studies conducted with 15 the assistance of Scott Fruin of ARB's Research Division 16 evaluated the association between ambient air pollution 17 and heart defects and pre-term birth. These studies are 18 important to our understanding of the impact of ambient 19 air pollutants on pregnancy, and underscore the importance 20 of considering all life stages when assessing the adverse 21 health effects of exposure to air pollutants. 22 --o0o-- 23 DR. DUTEAUX: There are limitations to this study 24 we reviewed today such as when they air sampling was 25 conducted and the absence of a control group. However, PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 73 1 this is the first study to consider an association between 2 prenatal exposure to air pollution and the respiratory 3 health of developing infants. 4 We are beginning to understand the fetuses and 5 infants may be particularly sensitive to a variety of 6 environmental insults, including air pollution. This 7 sensitivity may be due in part to a fetus's vulnerability 8 during specific windows of development or because of 9 specific biological mechanisms associated with pregnancy 10 or because of a direct effect of individual pollutants. 11 The research described in this health update is 12 an example of how each of these factors might affect the 13 respiratory health in the very young. 14 Future research in these areas will likely yield 15 additional important information on how early exposures to 16 air pollution can affect respiratory health later in life. 17 Thank you for your attention. And I would be 18 happy to answer any questions. 19 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Thank you very much. 20 Appreciate this health update. 21 Let me start -- Dr. Gong, why don't you. 22 BOARD MEMBER GONG: Oh, Okay. 23 Well done. And I think this is a very intriguing 24 health update that you've presented, going before birth, 25 in fact. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 74 1 One thing that I think is fundamental to this is 2 the big-picture question. And it really revolves to me 3 around whether or not antenatal exposures to air 4 pollutants influence asthma risk, as this study was trying 5 to do. Probably -- obviously it influences other risks, 6 such as allergy and even malignancy perhaps. 7 But just going back to this study, I was a little 8 surprised at the PAH's, given that -- of their toxicity -- 9 potential toxicity, weren't really considered 10 statistically or clinically relevant in a sense in terms 11 of prenatal exposure. It was only the combination of 12 prenatal exposure, I guess, plus environmental tobacco 13 smoke after birth that it really came up. I would have 14 thought that PAH's would transfer the placental blood flow 15 into the fetus as well and cause whatever damage it does 16 as well. But, again, I'm not sure about that. 17 The study really is an excellent study in the 18 sense that it actually raises more questions. And that's 19 I think fundamentally good. 20 But, again, I was a little surprised at the PAH 21 exposures before delivery didn't show more significance. 22 DR. DUTEAUX: And I think, as you and I know, 23 when you look at a particular outcome, what you're 24 measuring might not tell the whole story. And in this 25 study they were looking for actual effects, cough, wheeze, PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 75 1 probable asthma, that might have been diagnosed by a 2 pediatrician. But what we know from toxicology studies is 3 that PAH's can bind to certain growth factors; alter 4 hormone receptors; bind to DNA, creating adducts, which 5 are irreversible. 6 Those things can affect lung development, as 7 we've seen in rat and mouse models. Now, whether that's 8 happening in the human at exposure levels that are 9 relevant to environmental sources, I don't know. But if 10 we could -- and I don't know how we could do this with a 11 human study -- possibly look at markers for lung 12 development, that might give us a clue. How large are the 13 lobes? How well developed are the alveoli? Things like 14 that. 15 BOARD MEMBER GONG: Right. Not in humans though. 16 DR. DUTEAUX: Not in humans. 17 BOARD MEMBER GONG: The other aspect is that they 18 show changes within the first year in terms of respiratory 19 symptoms. It doesn't necessarily mean that these changes 20 are irreversible or are permanent. That's a downstream 21 question. Important, but another long-term study 22 obviously. 23 Thank you. 24 DR. DUTEAUX: Right. In terms of setting up an 25 immunological or an inflammatory response too, you can PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 76 1 maybe see long-term effects. 2 BOARD MEMBER GONG: And I was just at a recent 3 pulmonary -- lung -- meeting and heard actually a 4 symposium on this general topic in which the author 5 presented something, but very little from this paper. But 6 the other speakers really brought up the point that 7 environmental tobacco smoke or personal smoking by the 8 mother really is bad. There was a pediatrician who 9 basically showed multiple examples of how adverse health 10 effects were happening in the newborns. And you could 11 just name it. And such a potent stimulus tobacco smoke 12 is. But it also contains PAH's. So that's sort of why, 13 how can you disassociate the two in a sense? 14 15 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: Later this fall 16 staff will be bringing to the Board a proposal to list 17 environmental tobacco smoke as a toxic air contaminant, 18 which it wouldn't surprise you that hasn't happened 19 already. But that's been winding its way through the 20 evaluation process and is going before the scientific 21 review panel this summer. And depending on how long they 22 wish to engage with staff and with other parties on the 23 work done today, you should be seeing that between 24 September and December at the Board. 25 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Okay. Other PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 77 1 comments or questions by Board members? 2 Thank you, staff, very much. 3 We'll move on to the next item, which is a 4 research item. 5 The next item on the agenda is Item 05-5-2, one 6 research proposal. This project will characterize 7 off-road equipment population and will provide a basis for 8 and improved and updated inventory. 9 Staff, could you give us a few more details on 10 this particular proposal. 11 AIR POLLUTION SPECIALIST MORA: Sure. 12 Good morning, Madam Chair and member of the 13 Board. 14 (Thereupon an overhead presentation was 15 Presented as follows.) 16 AIR POLLUTION SPECIALIST MORA: Today we are 17 presenting one research proposal for your approval. 18 This proposal is a result of a competitive 19 solicitation we issued in November. Two proposals were 20 received. And the selected contractor, Eastern Research 21 Group, was deemed the most technically qualified. Both 22 proposals were reviewed by staff and by the Research 23 Screening Committee. 24 I'll now briefly explain the problem this project 25 will attempt to address, its objectives, and the expected PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 78 1 results. 2 --o0o-- 3 AIR POLLUTION SPECIALIST MORA: Our understanding 4 of the contributions of various off-road mobile emission 5 sources is critically dependent on knowing how much of the 6 various equipment types are in service and how much and 7 when they are being used. 8 Information gathered from previous studies did 9 not examine the question of whether some of these 10 equipment types are properly categorized with respect to 11 federal preemption which exempts farm and construction 12 equipment under 175 horsepower from California new engine 13 control programs. 14 The data supporting previous preemption decisions 15 are now over ten years old and should be updated. 16 The objectives of this study are to identify 17 types of off-road equipment powered by internal combustion 18 engines less than 175 horsepower and gather information 19 needed to estimate emissions from such equipment. 20 --o0o-- 21 AIR POLLUTION SPECIALIST MORA: Additionally, 22 although not part of the original scope, we ail also 23 gather information about electric equipment. 24 Note that as we implement this project, we will 25 work closely with stakeholders and plan a special outreach PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 79 1 effort with the agricultural industry. 2 --o0o-- 3 AIR POLLUTION SPECIALIST MORA: This project will 4 conducted in two phases. 5 Phase 1's first task will involve identifying the 6 types of off-road equipment powered with internal 7 combustion engines that use diesel, gasoline, gaseous or 8 other alternative fuels and have a maximum rating less 9 than 175 horsepower; and categorizing equipment by 10 building upon and enhancing existing equipment lists. 11 Next, the contractor will design a survey of 12 California households, commercial businesses and 13 governmental entities that may operate off-road equipment. 14 The last task of Phase 1 will include a pilot 15 trial of the surveys and data analysis. Results of the 16 trial will be forwarded to ARB staff and the Research 17 Screening Committee for review and comment. 18 --o0o-- 19 AIR POLLUTION SPECIALIST MORA: Phase 2 will 20 commence only upon staff's and the RC's determination that 21 based on the trial results the full plan could be 22 successful. Upon RC approval, the contractor will 23 implement a full scale survey to determine off-road 24 equipment population and analyze the results using 25 standard statistical methods. PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION (916) 362-2345 80 1 --o0o-- 2 AIR POLLUTION SPECIALIST MORA: The results will 3 be a profile of equipment populations, applications, users 4 and activity patterns of off-road equipment less than 175 5 horsepower. Results will help clarify and provide a 6 better understanding of the impact of preempt engines on 7 California's emission inventory and provide a basis for 8 dialogue with stakeholders on any changes needed. 9 --o0o-- 10 AIR POLLUTION SPECIALIST MORA: This concludes 11 the presentation. We recommend that you accept this 12 proposal and approve funding this project. 13 I'll be happy to answer any questions. 14 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: Okay. Thank you. 15 I do have a quick question. I think I know the 16 answer, but I want to be sure it's on the record. 17 The requirement to reach out to the community 18 that uses the equipment, that's part of the contract -- 19 that's written into the contract, correct? 20 AIR POLLUTION SPECIALIST MORA: Yes. They've 21 listed several trade groups that we'll reach out to. And 22 we're going to assist in that effort. 23 ACTING CHAIRPERSON RIORDAN: All right. Because 24 to me that's a very critical item. 25